Vis-Sim.com Forums

[UrbanLegend]

What is Your Primary Modelling Tool,

theres more options these days with more processing power on cards etc.

If you use more than one reply with the tools you use...

[PixelPusher]

We use Creator Pro for site models (airports, surrounding infrastructure, etc.) but TerraVista for our large area terrain models.

I'd prefer to use Creator Terrain Studio because it allows much better control of data resolution, but since only Vega Prime knows how to read those files we are stuck with TerraPage.

I really need to work on a MetaFlight loader for OpenSceneGraph. Someday...

[3dch]

Obviously Creator is the most popular tool - and plays in the top league regarding it's price.
I can't really imagine what it makes so unique (here I must admit that I'm interested in the topic, but not involved in any database modeling/development ath the moment). Could it also be pure 'habituation' since a tool used so widespread in the vis sim industry for years now simply MUST be the best - and as long as the company pays for it...
I would really like to know what makes a tool such as Creator (or Geo, which also has its price with all the plugins needed to have a good workflow with it) so different from a low priced tool like AC3D ( http://www.ac3d.org ).
Thanks for any replies.
Ernst
(Sorry should I sound like a heretic - it's not by intent)

[UrbanLegend]

Hey 3dch


No need to apologise, some good questions

I would say I'm biased towards Creator, becuase it was the first modeling package I worked with all those moons ago ,


then I went and worked for MPI for a few years


But the other modeling packages are very viable alternatives these days and most are considerable cheaper than as well ...

[UrbanLegend]

Hi Pixel

I have been thinking about a Mteaflight loader for OSG, and may get around to doing once OSG reaches 1.0, I refer a little stability for this.

I have had a few ask me about a loader , but know one as yet is willing to sponsor the work and stump up some beer money to getit done

[3dch]

Hi all!
In topic "51" ( http://www.3drealtimesimulation.com/3dsceneBB/viewtopic.php?t=51 ) .. provided me with very good comments regarding the value of (high prized) modeling tools aiming at the vis sim market. In particular the hierarchical structuring of models (with support for switches, sequences, etc.) makes them essential for real-time objects modeling. That's what I've learned during the past weeks. Motivated by ongoing discussions about a possible "technology change" for the simulators we develop at work as well as driven by personal interest I spent some time with "research" and tool evaluations, from freeware (wings3D) to cheap (AC3D) to affordable (3DS max) and expensive (Geo) tools.
What I can tell for now is, that terrain modeling in 3DS max with the OpenFligth Im-/Exporter plugin works fine:
- import DEM data into 3DS
- overlay it with representative imagery
- export to .flt format
- and then fly through the newly created world
- for example with the TerrainView tool ( http://www.viewtec.ch/techdiv/terrainview_e.html ).
At work the people involved with simulator development will further pursue this approach for the development of the simualtor terrains (which, to be frank, aren't very sophisticated).
But for the models (there are planes, helicopters, trucks), Creator most probably will defend its position (used for years in the company: but by only one person - who leaves the company in a few days - and nobody else knows Creator well - which could pose some problems, right?)
And about the cheap tools: they may be ok for this or that, but I wouldn't spend to much time with them, not even for hobby.
3DS really appeals me, and it tends towards real-time already: max7 has kind of functionality which allows to fly through scenes, also nice polygon reduction is 'included', and more.
So, for the moment my search for tools has ended: 3DS max7 with .flt plugin is my favorite for terrain and can be used for low polgon modeling as well, in addition to traditional tools it has the advantage of also being able to create movies with the data easily - could give project presentations some nice/impressive touch.
And: 3DS runs very stable - other tools crash more often...
Besides 3DS another interesting tool canidate is Geo. I would give it a try for 'smart' models modeling, since it comes (as one would expect) with nice behaviour system, usable for articulated parts etc.
Regards
Ernst

[UrbanLegend]

Yep a behaviour System is a nice to have, i

Although not every one would use it and your target run-time would need to support it as well.

Its one thing that missing from MPI Creator these days, they used to have a behaviour system back in the days of Multigen II

But Performer and thus Vega never supported it so it died, a pitty as in todays world many user do .. be able to link articulation and actions etc at the modeling stage rather than run time.


Many moons ago I wrote an action event engine that used the commnet fields in the Openglight format to link Dofs switch etc together. Worked pretty well

[Lars]

Well I am obviously using Creator ... have been for many years now. I appreciate and admire the plethora of tools and functionality that is available for May and Max (and others ofcourse) however I keep finding myself always going back to Creator.

If you have suggestions and/or ideas for new Creator tools or functionality, you can send it to creator@multigen-paradigm.com or send them directly to me. Now is the time, as we are working on the next releases and are pondering RFEs( requests for enhancements) and other user input for Creator.next

[stezzz]

Hello to everybody I used Maya and i am young in 3d studio.
I really love computer graphics..but i have to pass to simulation field...so i have to change and try new software

GEo for me crash a lot of time and i nether can't find the comand to center a pivot in a polygon...
I am still trying to find a solution to not use GEO because i would like use 3d studio or Maya ( so i can always inprove with that softwares) but with Maya and 3Ds I haven't reached too much results because exporting in flt i have:
-big problems for lods (that don't realy works)
-a lot of problems with the faces of the models
-prioblems with texture

How can i do?

If Visual simulation is so different from computer graphics Will i loose all that i learn of computer graphic?


3dch you manage to find a plugin to export well in openflight from 3d studio..but wich one?
do you export textures and overall l.o.ds (my real ..) ?


bye to everybody

[Lars]

Well I use Creator (surprise surprise). I have used Max and Maya in the past, but not the latest releases. I found them all useful for modeling, most certainly they are the top in their line when it comes to animation, but all have a slightly different bias. Max's roots reach back to AutoCAD and then masterfully spun off into its own arena. Maya is child of Wavefront and Alias tools. Creators roots (MultiGen II and Software Systems) go waaaay back into the fledgling beginnings of simulation, when Maya and Max where all but a dream

As time moves on the three main industries architecture/engineering, commercial applications and simulation are starting to merge and reach into each others territory. I guess you will continue to see all modeling tools approach each other, eventually (in a maybe not so distant future) blurring any discernable distinctions between them and then it will completely up to personal preference which tool to pick.

So its really up to you which tool you pick, but I maintain that to truly get anything done you cannot simply rely on one single tool/product. I have more then one hammer in my tool box in the garage, the are all different brands, at times I use one more then others, but they all get use and the all do the same basic thing but are more useful for certain things, i.e. smashing up concrete vs. hammering in a picture frame nail, vs. a rubber mallet to pound carpet onto tacks.

There are several plugins for Max and Maya to out put OFLT. I suggest you Google it. As for LODs, if you model the highres, you can use reductions tools (also available for Maya, Max and Creator) in either flavour of a plugin or standalone tool, to create lower resolution versions of your model.

If you need proper attribution and custom extensions to your OFLT, I suggest at least one copy of Creator/OFLT API to correct and streamline your output from the other modeling tools.

Well MHO ...

btw what are you missing in Creator to make it compete with your other product line up?

[UrbanLegend]

I would have thought you only had one type in your tool box Lars, and that would be "Craftsman" of course

[stezzz]

thanks Lars for what you wrote, you gave me a good and clear way to see the situation, and the concept of more tool you have is better is relly true.
just one question about what you wrote:
There are several plugins for Max and Maya to out put OFLT. I suggest you Google it. As for LODs, if you model the highres, you can use reductions tools (also available for Maya, Max and Creator) in either flavour of a plugin or standalone tool, to create lower resolution versions of your model.


1) how can i put togheter the models of different level of details? building so the l.o.d? because the big big probnlem i have is exporting l.o.d

2)
For Max and Maya there are not so many plug in to export in openflight without remake all the model to fix it up after converting.. it is about 2 weeks i am looking for a good plug in that doesn't destroy my model

After all my researching in the "plugin field", i have finally find a good one called polytrans but there is the problem of l.o.d because i have discovered that it is not possible export lod from max to openflight because 3ds max doesn't have the same concept of LOD that 3ds max does. (so i am back to the start point )
3ds max uses the screen pixel coverage for LOD, while in OpenFlight it uses "switch-in and switch-out" distances. Almost every file format and program
uses a difference concept for measuring LOD so
i... really don't know how can i do to:

make my models in openflight format with:
-l.o.d.
-pointlight
-degree of freedom
-texture.
without using creator because it is too much expansive..

I am trying using GEo too but it is really slow and unstable


thanks

[UrbanLegend]

Note with LOD's most run-times that use Openflight use switch distances for LOD's so this is something you will have to address, what does your run-time support

What is your run-time ?


As I have pointed in other posts, using another tool to got to OpenFlight can be problematic, in this case you have problems with LOD's this is a problem with exporter and that perhaps needs to be address by those that provide the exporter etc.

Note that Creator and OpenFlight actually does support screen size based LODing, its called Significant Size, which is value assigned to a LOD for calculating the switch ranges based on display settings such as resolution, screen size, and field-of-view

Vega Prime also work with Significant Size loding

[geoauthor]

This post is for stezzz

First off: I'm sorry that you have experienced some problems with Geo . We find this often comes down to some hardware and/or software configuration issue (i.e. Geo settings, graphics card used, driver version etc.). Please drop me a line at andy@carbongraphics.com so we can try & fix this.

Secondly: regarding polygon simplification and/or LOD generation. You should check out (once we get you up and running again) the Simplify plugin for Geo. This is a multi-resolution mesh based technology for interactively reducing high-poly models and creating lower level LODs for you. It really is an impressive add-on. However, as Lars mentioned above, alternative simplification options exist in most commercial packages (only a side-by-side comparison will tel you which is appropriate for your particular task).

Andy

[Bunter]

Try this polygon reduction tool, I've tried quite a few and this is by far the best. It gives 8 levels of reduction. The drawback is it only works on VRML files. I use Polytrans to convert to and from OpenFlight. It's also free.

/www.vizup.com/

[3dch]

Hi stezzz, and all others as well!

I was on holiday where there was no keyboard around - just nature and laziness - and therefore I didn't reply until now.

The .flt exporter I tried out is okino's PolyTrans, as mentioned by others before (http://www.okino.com/conv/pt4max.htm).
There's another plugin tested by a colleague who seems to be happy with. Best is to see their website http://www.bluerock.com/index.html.

I didn't do any LOD things, since the simulators I was involved with are for ground based, immobile air defence, the surrounding "looks how it looks", the terrain hopefully doesn't move itself...

If you love computer graphics.. then for sure you will appreciate vis sim, in particular in combination with programming, if you have the chance to. I'm not an expert in either field but I guess, the more you know in one of the two fields, the more you can benefit in the other domain. And doing one thing doesn't necessarily mean forgetting about other passions...

Wish you success in vis sim!
Ernst

[stezzz]

Thanks Bunter for the polygon reduction link, and thanks to 3dch great man, this forum is great.

I am looking forward to go to hoyday too anyway... without keyboards

About GEO SOFTWARE for geoauthor:
i think the only problem i have is my card graphic driver because i tried to run GEO in an other computer, and it works really different

Thanks for the support i surely I will use your contact for software usage questions , because i like GEo and i hope it will became like MAYA for 3D studio

[cman]

Hey all,

I find a good polygon reducer is Blender ( http://blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html ). With it you can chose the number of triangles you would like to reduce to. It is opensource.

Cheers,
cman

[UrbanLegend]

Blender is a nice tool


The major issue for many is the import export formats support by the tool will not suit every one...

[rich]

Blender is Nice!

I have no major issues with import/export formats. Have you seen the list of supported formats in current releases?

I find the workflow for raw modeling to be about 1.5-2x faster than creator.